This is what hatred of women really looks like!
I am the person who broke the precious 'wall of silence' on Genderberg. For the record I never agreed to keep Genderberg messages private. None of the welcome letters say anything about it. The registration agreement I clicked on didn't mention it.
Wasn't feminism supposed to be about REDUCING THE VIOLENCE against women? Isn't it supposed to be about keeping women FREE FROM THREATS? I thought so when I first joined the forums at Genderberg. I was deeply concerned about a possible link between pornography and violence. I was looking to learn how to help keep women safe. Over time there I realize a horrible truth. Many of the 'feminists' in the anti-pornography and anti-sex worker movement are driven by hatred, anger and jealousy. I watched their non-stop attacks against other women and their constant blaming and shaming and it made me sick!
Over time I got fearful. You can't really understand the hatred that is embodied in many of the posts on Genderberg. Many members of that forum simply do not see other women as human at all. I was worried about what they would do to the targets of their hatred and anger. The seemed so willing to deny that the women they attacked had any feelings or rights.
Over time I found that the people they called their enemy where really the ones who cared about women. These 'sexbots' were the women who cared about making sure that there was freedom to pursue happiness. That empowered women were free to live their life as they choose. I am not sure why the belief that women should be free to live as they wish is so dangerous. I do know that to many in the Genderberg this belief in women's freedom is utterly inexcusable. They will do anything to destroy it.
When I could not take the fear any more I broke my silence and sent out some letters letting people know what was happening in Genderberg. While many will claim that Genderberg is a "safe space" my belief is that there should be no safe space for those who work to destroy women. There should be no dark corner where ANYONE can get together and plot against or foster hatred of women. Misogyny deserves no shield to hide behind.
It is clear to me now I did the right thing. When Renegade Evolution commented on some of the hate being thrown her way the threats and blackmail she is suffering prove me right. There is no evil that these haters of women will not stoop to. There is no vile act of malice they cannot justify. They will do anything in their power to destroy or silence anyone they disagree with. In their hate they are trying to destroy her. In their blood lust for a purge they are trying to force Renegade Evolution to reveal who I am. They want to close the hole so they can go back to plotting against women in the dark. Hidden. So far Ren has stood against their attacks and it speak volumes about who truly cares about women that she is protecting me.
Think about who is risking herself to protect a woman. Think of who is threatening to place another woman at risk of being attacked or raped in order to get their way. Who loves women and who hates them? It's obvious to me.
The sad / funny fact of it all is that Ren couldn't expose me even if she wanted to. The account I sent out the information from is not one that is registered on Genderberg. Of course neither is the account that this blog is created under. I sent it to several people I thought could help and even I don't who who sent it to her. Before you call me a coward for that take a good look at what these viscous bitches are capable of. We now know that there is no limit to how far they will go to try and destroy anyone who speaks against them.
In my time on Genderberg I read more hatred of women than I ever read or saw in pornography. Now thanks to 'Stormy' I have now also seen more violence and threads against a woman than I ever have in porn.
All I can say is we need to support Take Back The Blog! because online violence and harassment is never OK.
35 comments:
A-freakin' men and a-women, DP.
As a sex radical and sex-positive feminist sympathizer and a progressive, I sincerely thank you for having the ovaries to reveal the truth and the motive behind your actions.
It is obvious that this cult will stoop to no end of lows to intimidate their critics, or destroy women who don't drink their Kool-Aid...and your exposure of them is a public service that is long overdue.
May I provide a link and some exercpts at my blog?? My own comments on the matter are here:
Anthony
wow, i'm deeply moved and appreciate your courage to speak up and out, a true feminist value.
Sorry..mistyped the link:
The SmackDog Chronicles: An Open Letter to the APRF Cult....
Anthony
Thank you. Thank you for this.
For my own sanity I'm not posting a full post on this today, and on the whole am on board with the "please can we stop talking to or even reading these fools."
But this shit is over a line and not okay. I will be posting about it on the 28th (Take Back the Blog, indeed). it will be succinct.
You just can't even be serious. If you aren't some fake troll just trying to start shit, I'm Elvis.
I fully agree that what is going down is seriously fucked, but this is just plain nasty and wrong.
Anthony please do. The more people that know about this abuse the better for all of us.
Faith I am very serious.
You know, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking this step. You have shown more bravery and strength and character than any of those asshats could ever hope to have in this lifetime. When we stand silent in the presence of evil, we can choose to either support it or defy it. You chose the latter even though it is women who are being the terrorists in this case--women who are supposedly our "sisters". That's as radical as one can get. You are more radical feminists than anyone of them on Genderberg.
You know--Faith, it occured to me that this could be yet more shit-stirring. Thing is, though, the shit -is- stirred, and the paranoia and shunning and casting out and so on and so forth from that lot is already so pronounced that...well, the fact that i don't find this ludicrous or over the top is because what i -know- is real is already so frigging ludicrous and over the top.
and you know, it's not like enough of us haven't been accused of being fakes or trolls...at this point, i just don't honestly care, you know. there's nothing in this that i don't already know or haven't guessed, frankly.
thank you.
Great post. You are right of course. It has gone too far - threatening to release private details is despicable. We've seen the threats there are to bloggers - Kathy Sierra and DeviousDiva and now a self-professed feminist is going to out another woman unless she quits being mean to her. Grow up. The "I'm telling" attitude is a little old.
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
So are you doing a kind of "Genderberg Watch"? Here's something I've been wanting to share. I came across in a google blog search about a month ago on I forget what. I saw it posted to Portland Indymedia, but its originally from Genderberg:
link
Absolutely tinfoil hat kind of stuff. Genderberg is supposed to be a "recovery" forum? Only if collective paranoia constitutes recovery.
IACB,
Um. Yeah, about that...
"this girl looked, to me, kind of dirty. She wasn't a student being one myself I could easily tell but what I noticed more was judging by her gait she did not seem to be gainfully employed or legitimately occupied with seeking truth."
??????
Eeeeeeee....
*backs away slowly*
Chiming in here for the first time on this discussion. I comment a lot at Belle's and Ren's so I assume I'm considered a member of the anti-radfem tribe. So be it.
My personal opinion is that this blog and your actions, Deep Feminist, are unethical.
You are splitting hairs on the privacy issue. The firewall (is that the right term?) that requires people to register in order to read genderblog, makes it clear that privacy is important to the forum owners. You deliberately ignored that and provided outsiders with an anonymous quote completely out of context.
Political movements include all kinds of people, including people who are very angry and vocal about it. I understand that this bothered you, but unless these people expressed specific personal threats and a plan of action to directly attack another human being, they deserve the right to express that anger. If they did threaten someone directly, it should be brought to the forum owners and/or the ISP for action.
The comment Ren posted was ignorant and easily disproved by anyone who cared to examine it. It was not a threat, harrassment or online violence.
I understand you felt uncomfortable at the forum but I believe there are better ways to express your concern, first and foremost by contacting the forum moderators.
Equating hate speech in a private forum to online violence, harrassment, or "terrorism" as your blog title states, is ludicrous in the extreme.
You've slandered all radical feminists with your blog title because you disapprove of the actions of a few people. That's incredibly unfair.
I wish you well in your search for a space where you can feel comfortable and have a positive effect in the world.
that may not be, but the Stormcloud declaration of intent to dig up dirt on Ren unless she stops "slagging off" radical feminism is certainly harassment and stalkeriffic at the very least.
and no, i am sure neither SC nor the hooved one speak for all radical feminists; but, you know, radical feminists who -don't- want to be associated with this shit might want to take the opportunity to say a little something at this juncture. because, SC is certainly doing what she is doing in the -name- of radical feminism.
Responding to ravenmn:
You are entitled to your opinion of DP and her words and comments; but we are just as entitled to challenge it.
You make such a case of DP being "unethical" merely for revealing the private posts of Genderberg. As if the actual content of that forum specifically slandering and distorting the public words of Ren, Andrea, and other critics of their ideology mattered far less.
No one is challenging Sam's right to maintain her forum as she see fit....but when her forum is used deliberately as a sounding board to deliberately smear individuals, then those who are the targets have a legitimate right to have such slanders exposed in public and challenged to clear the record.
As for the notion of "slandering radical feminists"...well, I'd say the the extreme acts and words of the likes of Stormy (who threatened, let us remember, to "out" Ren and reveal her private information), v (who recently even elevated the stakes one notch higher by making not-so-thinly-veiled physical threats at Andrea), Delphyne, Pony, and Sam do more to slander the legitimate cause of radical feminism than anything Deep Feminist or Ren or any critic of antipornradfem could ever do.
And I fundamentally disagree with you on your view of Ren's comment. I suppose that you mean the second portion of that post that was added on following the brohaha at Witchy-Woo's blog, where Ren's attempt to defend herself and her comments were met with nothing less than utter contempt, mocking disdain, and more personal adhominen attacks.
Given all that, I believe that, if anything, she reacted with unusual restraint...and for the time she DID respond in anger with the "choke on your own blood" remark, she quickly stepped back and retracted those words.
Has Stormy or anyone else on the other side ever retracted their own personal attacks in return?? I believe that the answer is obvious.
No, Raven...this is not merely an extreme response to an one-time burst of anger; this is standard operating procedure for this group of extremists to intimidate and verbally assault and dehumanize their critics..or anyone who doesn't merely parrot their ideology. And it is sadly having its desired effect: already, no less than four feminist bloggers have, in reaction to these attacks, either taken down or downgraded their blogs to never mention radicalfeminist politics ever again.
And yet, the only criticism you can make is that DP was "unethical" in exposing the deep hatred and loathing of this posse of fascists??? Sorry, Raven, but it seems that your priorities are a bit misdirected.
Finally...since when did DP "slander all radical feminists" when her remarks were specifically directed towards the owners and posters at Genderberg and their specific remarks and actions?? Is that an admission on your part that Genderberg really does represent "radical feminism" in your mind?? If not, then why not be equally as passionate about repudiating the root cause of the attacks as you apparantly are in dissing DP for her "unethical" actions??
Calling the actions of the Genderberg crew -- although, in my personal opinion, the word "cult" seems more appropriate -- "radical feminist terrorism" certainly does sound quite extreme...but the actions witnessed by this group certainly fall under the heading of terrorism, if not the physical meaning, then certainly of the psychological meaning of the term. They may not advocate planting bombs in buildings (except some have spoken quite publically implying that bombing an adult bookstore or two would not be objectionable), but their tactics against their opponents simply cannot be justified by any means other than to intimidate and silence people who have done no wrong.
I deeply respect and acknowledge that you are one of the more reasonable and open radical feminists in the blogosphere, Raven. But that doesn't make their actions any less disgusting and injurous....and DP's exposure of their actions any less brave and needed...however "unethical" you may see it.
This is my opinion..and mine alone. Take it as you will.
Anthony
Anthony: "And I fundamentally disagree with you on your view of Ren's comment. "
Hold on! I made no statement about Ren's comments. I was talking about the moron who claimed Ren was part of a stealth porn marketing campaign. I found his/her comment to be ludicrous and easy to disprove.
And yet, the only criticism you can make is that DP was "unethical" in exposing the deep hatred and loathing of this posse of fascists???
On the contrary, Anthony. The loathing and hatred has been apparent for quite some time. That it takes place in a private forum is something I basically assumed, because I've seen this kind of shit over the years.
They talk about us behind our backs. My feeling: so what? Is it going to stop me from being an activist? Nope. Is it going to change my opinion? Nope.
Frankly, I prefer they do it privately so I won't have to listen to their nonsense.
Anthony: "I deeply respect and acknowledge that you are one of the more reasonable and open radical feminists in the blogosphere, Raven."
Thank you for the comment, but I assure you I am not a radical feminist; I'm a socialist feminist. However, I have learned valuable lessons from radfems
I've been acquainted with over the years.
BD: "but, you know, radical feminists who -don't- want to be associated with this shit might want to take the opportunity to say a little something at this juncture..."
I agree that there's an awful lot of "power over" being either applauded or ignored by some who claim they refuse to engage in such activity.
Stormcloud is an admitted stalker. But she is declaring this in a public forum, not on the private forum that DF has chosen to violate. Big difference, imo.
DF, I don't know you, but I have to say that taking the steps you have taken against the people of GenderBerg is, as Ravenmn has said, completely unethical. You knew that there were safeguards in place at GB that were there to keep people from outing personal posts, regardless of their content. Personally, I feel it is every woman's right to refute horseshit posted about them, so I do not fault Ren for acting out against Pony's posts, but to betray an obvious trust to keep private posts private is beyond the pale. Outing people's personal feelings on subjects is a load of horseshit, and I personally find you neither brave nor worthy of praise. I'm sorry if this offends you, but I do not feel your actions are worthy of the responses you have been given, no matter how I feel about Ren or any of the other posters.
I'm sorry but - okay, actually, I'm not sorry - I just cannot wrap my head around how it is that we're blaming Deep Feminist for posting this, in light of all the atrocious shit Stormy is pulling out of her ass.
THE TWO DO NOT REMOTELY COMPARE.
These two actions (or sets of actions) are not even on the same planet, as far as I'm considered.
This reminds me of when teachers in school would make sure to scold both children who got in a fight... I guess to try to teach some dubious lesson. BULLSHIT. The kid who started the fight bears more responsibility, and therefore deserves more punishment, than the kid who defended him/herself.
And the whole "private forum" business?
Look. Do any of us honestly believe that communication over the internet - short of using encryption, or a secure server - is "private?" Anyone who does believe such a thing doesn't understand how the internet works.
I said as much to V. on the horrible thread at Witchy's. There's no such thing as a "private email," which is what she was on about.
I am sure there are many MRA forums that are private. If one of them had targeted a specific woman by name for attack and that was revealed would you be attacking that? I didn't "out" anyone. I did not post anyone's personal information. I did not threaten to do so. I revealed no ones story of abuse or pain. I named no names. What I did do was let potential victims know of portions of specific posts. Posts that I feared indicated an impending attack.
Now to warn a victim that a group is plotting against them is wrong? To tell someone that there is a group filled with hate talking about them, by name is wrong? I disagree. How does one betray the trust of a group of people gathering to hate another woman? Stormy has proven my fears justified. They are capable of all the violence I feared they were. How does hate deserve privacy?
" I didn't "out" anyone. I did not post anyone's personal information. I did not threaten to do so. I revealed no ones story of abuse or pain. I named no names."
And I swear I hope that doesn't happen, cause the feeling of worrying about that shit is...yeah...shitty.
Outing/so on, so forth, anyones personal shit is just...wrong.
Now to warn a victim that a group is plotting against them is wrong?
Define 'plotting'. Is there evidence that the women involved acted in the style of MRA groups?
Of course, I realize that asking for this information is also asking for further disclosure. As I said at my blog, sometimes I should just shut the fuck up.
I agree with Deep Feminist's response to Jack and Raven – what damaging information has been revealed here? It is correct to point out that if identities or stories of abuse or other very personal info were outed, that would be fucked up. That has not, in fact, happened. Nor, does it seem like DF has any intention of doing something like this.
Of course, if you believe some of the discussion at Witchy's, you'd think this is what has taken place.
Really, the only thing that was outed was an entirely stupid comment that's resulted in a disproportionate amount of strife.
what is ticking around in my mind at the moment, wrt my admittedly ill-advised 'choke' comment is...
well...it was not directed at any one person directly, even any one group of people. It was a gut rage lash out at people treating other folk i like very shitty...not just rad fems, but racists, sexists, utlra right wingers, religious zealots, mra's, trolls and random assholes....I mean, look at the list of people there in that post...they've taken shit from A LOT of people...of ALL kinds...
shrug.
well...it was not directed at any one person directly, even any one group of people.
Now you've really done it!
You've gone and questioned their inherant right to define themselves as the wounded victims.
How will they ever justify outing someone and avoid moral responsability?
Ren, for what it's worth, I don't think your comment was 'inappropriate.' I know I'm supposed to give lip service to that idea... you know, that's it's never okay to have an outburst fueled by anger and hurt... but fuck that. Sometimes it IS okay, especially if you've taken a whole lot of shit and not been listened to. If you had actually harmed someone that would be a different story. But you didn't. And shit... you're only human. What do people expect? That they can shit on you and shit on you and you'll just take it?
I am sure there are many MRA forums that are private. If one of them had targeted a specific woman by name for attack and that was revealed would you be attacking that?
Yes. Absolutely. People getting together privately to vent their anger is absolutely acceptable to me.
Taking that anger out of context and sending it to the subject of the anger does (at least) two wrong things:
1. It gives a very distorted view of the attacker's actual point of view once the anger has subsided.
2. Because it's anonymous, every person who acknowledges that they post at GB forums is now under suspicion as being the person who made that particular comment. It is unfair to them.
DF: " How does hate deserve privacy?"
It's human to vent anger. When I vent, I tend to exaggerate, swear, threaten, and generally go over the top of all decent boundaries. My friends and family understand that and don't hold me to it when, on the next day, I mention something I appreciate about the person who angered me.
First off, to Ravenmn: I stand corrected, and I will apologize to you for misinterpereting your comments. My feelings about this still stand as written, but I should have read and thought a bit more about your response before I loaded up my gun and fired.
Now, to JackGoff: Let's reset the base fundamentals, shall we?? It was a specific comment at Genderberg -- the one claiming Ren as not human but as an "astroturf" invention of the porn industry" that was released to the public. No revelations of private, intimate details of abuse were ever revealed by DP or anyone else. (And, as it turns out, the original writer of that quote did indeed reveal herself...not at Genderberg, but at Heart's Women's Spaces blog (which, last time I checked, is still public).
Much of the subsequent attacks on antipornradfem critics have occured not only behind the firewalls of Genderberg, but in openly public blogs, like Heart's, Laurelin's, Witchy-Woo's, and Chasingmoksha's, among the more notorious. So, in fact, this goes much deeper than just the issue of a private blog like Genderberg; this goes to the heart of APRF ideology and to this core group's propensity to directly terrorise and intimidate other women.
And Ren's response to this was entirely generalized to what she saw as a gratituous assault on her friends and bloggers who basically have been savaged for not blindly folllowing the Genderberg (or, maybe, that should be "Gender-Borg"??) collective hive ideology. It only got personal when Stormy and the crew decided to make it so.
I am in full agreement with Amber: what Ren did was not only within her rights and totally appropriate; in fact, it was actually quite understated and calm, considering all the piling on of crap that she has taken (and continues to take). And, at least she has shown some reticence and taken back that "choke on your own blood" remark.
In other words...there is no comparison on who's acting with class and who's not.
Anthony
Look, I'll say this, I've said it before:
I think it's generally creepy to "leak" stuff from private fora. and much as i've rubbernecked at the leaked content, it's not something i hold with doing myself, if and when i'm in such a forum.
There is however a continuum of 'creepy." The level I'm seeing wrt this--in the v.c.'s i've belonged to, the repercussions would simply be the leaker being kicked out of the forum, having proven sie could not be trusted to adhere to the rules.
I most definitely do not hold with any revealing of other peoples' personal information.
So far, I haven't seen that happening here. I did not even realize--I suppose I should have--that that was a concern; I had assumed that the "safe space" meant people letting down their virtual hair and saying what they felt like without being subject to eyeballs and commenters from hither and yon; in my experience "private" fora often do this and still don't entail revealing such things as real names, addresses, names of kids, and so forth. I can understand and sympathize if people are now feeling fearful that that sort of information is not secure. And I condemn any revealing of any such information.
So far, what I've seen of the "leaks" has been hateful and stupid-as-shit comments by the same ol' familiar handles; the only real difference between those and the ones in public are that these were supposed to be "off the record." And yep, it's not suave to remain a member of a forum and continue to release that shit, I will say that now; it's not like any of us don't know what they're like.
What I did appreciate was someone from the inner sanctum saying, "This shit is hateful." Because it is.
And now, DF, I think the ethical thing to do would be to cancel your membership there.
If you have information about specific -threats- to any individual or place of business or suchlike, then that is different. Then you have a responsibility to report it to the authorities. I'm not so far hearing that that is the case.
Apart from that--well, it just sounds like a big ol' mess, I've said -that- before, and tbh I have the impression that there is more than one unhappy camper in there, and that the Macbeth-ish atmosphere --just my own subjective opinion from the peanut gallery, you understand--is about as far from a "safe space" as I can think of, even without the actual "leaks;"
but, hey, when all's said and done: not my table, really, sorry.
I've thought about this a lot in the past week, and I want to state for the record that I don't believe we should be exposing anything hidden either. deep feminist, I understand from what you've said here why you would find the atmosphere at genderberg threatening and frightening. But I think there are better ways to deal with that than to repost a locked post. I think you could make general statements about what the genderberg people were saying without exposing the text of an actual post. It makes sense that people who posted personal information, or details of traumatic experiences with the understanding that those descriptions were private would now be frightened. While I don't believe you would have any interest in exposing such things, I know that if I had put them up somewhere expecting them to be private, I would be upset if anyone took anything I said from that area. I would wonder just what these people wanted to know about me, and just what these people might find funny or important to share with their buddies.
I don't believe two wrongs make a right. I believe the threats to out Ren just go to show that you probably have excellent reason to find genderberg a threatening and sickening environment. I believe that, even though I think what you did is wrong, decent human beings would not respond to it in the way the person who threaten to out Ren did. I believe it says a lot about the people you wanted to expose that they've done so. But again, I think that there was a better way to discuss what might or might not have been going on in private space.
And when all is said and done, nasty people will crawl into holes and hide on the Internet. Is it really all that important to overturn some worm infested wood and watch vermin crawl out? I don't believe it is. Unless you've observed illegal activity, or plans to commit illegal activity, I think it's better just to let the rotting wood be.
(deleted and reposted to correct minor wording error in 1st para)
I'm still not seeing equal offenses here, as (and others have pointed this out), DF didn't reveal any personal information about specific people.
yeh, what trin said.
amber, it doesn't matter if it's "equal;" i don't think we can use their nonexistent ethics as a yardstick, you know?
this particular post, of itself, was the sort of general statement that felt about right.
in general, i dunno...i'm reading the latest and i sympathize, but the whole sort of cloak and dagger and "terrorist" language to begin with feels a bit...do you even want to go there with them? maybe it's impossible to not sound like that after spending enough time there; just, from where i'm sitting, the whole thing feels like...apart from the real-life threats, it looks like a handful of horrible but profoundly silly people playing at some sort of toxic wendy-house, with a Strangelovian overtone.
i don't mean to be flip; i spent enough time around it to get pretty caught up in the Drama of it all myself, god knows, and they were never even really my peer group, so i can imagine what it's like if you thought these were your People.
but...i dunno. i want to say: well, do what you need to do for your own closure, i guess (i mean, in terms of being fixed on them), just: if you can, to the best you can, maybe best to back away for a bit, you know, get involved with healthier people and situations...
I understand, BD, and I get why some people disapprove or think it's unethical. And I know that maybe i've come off as a bit contrarian here, and I'm sorry if it came off that way bc I wasn't intending to appear antagonistic. But, overall, I think this just might be one occasion where we'll haev to agree to disagree, and I'm okay w/ that.
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